Curse

-Makai- · Feb 25, 2010, 04:26 AM // 04:26

*swims through the Mesmer debate ocean*

Blood Magic looks like it can be used in some interesting combinations, though it still doesn't appear useful enough to concentrate on it. Demonic Flesh might just dust off my D/N, though, if the effect triggers on multiple opponents. I can already see AoG + DF + Scythe + IAS dealing a sizable amount of armor ignoring damage.

As for the Ritualist changes, I'm interested to see how the three elites will be modified. However, the damage hexes look pretty poor, when options like Necrosis are available. Also, I wish Lamentation had been changed into an offensive spirit with a bonus damage trigger similarly to Signet of Lost Souls. We'll have to see how long the new AwL takes to recharge...

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 25, 2010, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Oh, I hope this post isn't too late fir the Test Krewe. Please make sure you do something with either Glyph of Swiftness or Spellbreaker. With cons, there is a build that allows monks to perma-spellbreaker. We don't want monks to become the next perma tank after OF and SF die.

Here I will post the build now, don't say I didn't warn you;

Blessed Aura
glyph of swiftness
spell breaker

add 600 monk skills

20% enchant staff.

Without cons you have approx 5sec gap for soellbreaker down time.

FyrFytr998 · Feb 25, 2010, 05:02 AM // 05:02

It's 12:04am Feb. 25th on the East Coast. I can haz nerfs now?

ZaM0 · Feb 25, 2010, 09:03 AM // 09:03

<QQ>
It's actually possible to do 600/smite without SB. Risky, but possible, and it could be even faster at DSC/MQSC when using damage skillls instead and doing it with a right group. Just a bit PUG unfriendly. Don't understand wrong, I'm for the SB/OF/SF nerfs. But why nerfing the whole duo monk idea? Make it harder, ok, but it was one of the most fun things you could do for hour or two every day... Atleast the Kurz/Lux titles were possible. The duo 600/smite UW is pretty OP, yeah, but why vitiate it all? When someone thinks of a great build and it goes well, is it always necessary that build to be nerfed? Please, nerf SB and all the OP skills, but don't ever call protective spirit / spirit bond and those tiny innocent smiting enchants imba. ty.
</end of QQing>

Gill Halendt · Feb 25, 2010, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZaM0

Don't understand wrong, I'm for the SB/OF/SF nerfs. But why nerfing the whole duo monk idea? Make it harder.

This is exactly what's going to happen IMO. My bets are Holy Wrath and Retribution changed so that 600/Smite is slowed down but still possible - just not the most profitable choice. Or something like this.

Sharkinu · Feb 25, 2010, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

With cons, there is a build that allows monks to perma-spellbreaker.

With Blessed aura + 20% enchant weapon you can mantain Spell Breaker permanently even without cons. You just need a 3rd man: a ranger with QZ.

But this is old stuff.
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_600/Smite/QZ

II Lucky Charm II · Feb 25, 2010, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Good enough update. By the way guys, Starcraft 2 beta has been released.

ZaM0 · Feb 25, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

This is exactly what's going to happen IMO. My bets are Holy Wrath and Retribution changed so that 600/Smite is slowed down but still possible - just not the most profitable choice. Or something like this.

The worst thing they would do is to make Holy Wrath end when the caster's energy drop to 0. This would ruin it all. <-- and I bet they will do this.
Probably it would be possible with something like Shield of Judgement + Signet of Mystic Wrath, but it would be either too slow or impossible.

SkekSister · Feb 25, 2010, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZaM0

The worst thing they would do is to make Holy Wrath end when the caster's energy drop to 0. This would ruin it all. <-- and I bet they will do this.
Probably it would be possible with something like Shield of Judgement + Signet of Mystic Wrath, but it would be either too slow or impossible.

Aye that's a simple option for a 'fix' however it would totally gimp Holy Wrath, might as well just remove it from the game entirely.

drkn · Feb 25, 2010, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

seriously, with permaform tanks gone maybe we might get a bit more of a less overpowered pve meta.

it would be a solution if other OP stuff was nerfed as well, in one massive nerfway: discord, SR, SY, RoJ, MoP, orders, 55 monks, QZ, all the offensive spirits - not only SoS... and so on.
after the nerfbat hits all the classes at all their strong sides, we'd have much less options to play with, making the game even more boring for the old players. as long as i agree that being invincible is seriously broken, i wouldn't mind RoJ or MoP not being nerfed if all classes had a niche like that.

Quote:

It's actually possible to do 600/smite without SB. Risky, but possible, and it could be even faster at DSC/MQSC when using damage skillls instead and doing it with a right group.

R can be done without SB with nearly no risk, getting insane times.

The Josip · Feb 25, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

it would be a solution if other OP stuff was nerfed as well, in one massive nerfway: discord, SR, SY, RoJ, MoP, orders, 55 monks, QZ, all the offensive spirits - not only SoS... and so on.
after the nerfbat hits at all their strong sides, we'd have much less options to play with, making the game even more boring for the old players

Actually, the exact opposite would happen for old players - more options to play with = more fun.

Say you have a two-sided pyramid.

.
..
...
....
.....
....
...
..
.

At the bottom are trash skills and at the top super overpowered ones.

If you remove first dot, you come to the line with 2 dots = more gameplay options = more fun.

Then you remove those 2 dots and you get to 3 dots = more gameplay options = more fun.

Ideal balance will never be achieved, it's purely theoretical. However, artificially keeping few skills blatantly overpowered on purpose so that some classes see play and so that metagame artificially is changed (something that Izzy I believe was doing on purpose from what I remember, but correct me if wrong) - this is just wrong. It's ok if some skills are buffed so they see play and introduce some fresh options, but making it so silly as SF for instance is just too much.

And let's not forget that Shadow Form exists on purpose because ANet wanted to give sucky people a chance to get their titles. You want Legendary Master of the North? No problem, just pay the runner if you're to sucky to do dungeon X. It wasnt always a matter of skill - sometimes you just need speed because there's so much to grind.

So it's a game design. SF is a feature, not anomaly or error that needs fixing.

I'm not much concerned with all these, but I merely want other professions same-power level skills. If SF is power-creep assassins get to counter grind-creep, then all classes need to get buff to counter grind-creep. Assassins still have SF and melee buffs, Rt's OP spirit spam, Ele OP ER, Paras have god mode skill options, Necros insane in PvE as usual, and Mesmers (but only female ones) have overpowered clothes so they can stand still in outposts looking good while other professions play the game.

drkn · Feb 25, 2010, 01:28 PM // 13:28

nerfing any skill limits the pool of useful skills that may be used in various builds. nerfing stuff that is powerful, yet not totally broken, is NOT the best way in an already easy game. it'd be much better to buff monsters rather than nerf players. more skills thrashed = less skills to choose from. even if it's MoP. e: by buffing monsters or killing some op synergies, you'd scale those top dots from your pyramid to the middle, while not completely deleting them from the whole construction.
and nerfing RoJ would mean that mesmers can't even run FC echo RoJ, making them even less useful ;p

the perfect, ideal skill balance - and therefore never achievable - can be imagined as a regular decagon. now, cut it into ten equal parts. each of them represents one class. put classes somehow similar one by another - paragon by warrior, casters on one side, etc.
now, to every border of the decagon add a small triangle, going outside of it.
draw a little circle inside, with it's center being the center of decagon, with radius of 1/5 of the decagon.
every part represents a class's skill pool. those that are near each other have a good primairy/secondary synergy. the skills that are very close to the center, in that little circle, are 'general skills', sometimes useful for all classes, depending on location, team composition, pvp arena and so on. the skills in those little triangles are the niches - the skills that are the most powerful out of the class and unavailable to other classes. the nearer the top of the triangle, the better and harder to play by someone else they are.
yes, i'm basing on several theoretical concepts made up by magic: the gathering fandom. there are vast similarities between MtG and GW.

here, we have those things messed up. some classes have huge triangles, some have none. some classes can reap others of their top skills and powers, while the reaped ones have nothing in return. like a drawing of a three years old kid.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 25, 2010, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Mesmers (but only female ones) have overpowered clothes so they can stand still in outposts looking good while other professions play the game.

Male Mesmers look way better. Just saying.

(Might want to nerf male Mesmer outfits, ArenaNet.)

chessyang · Feb 25, 2010, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

It's 12:04am Feb. 25th on the East Coast. I can haz nerfs now?

NO you can't! i haven't made my last few 100k yets

can't wait to get home after work and see all the QQ in GW later tonight.

The Josip · Feb 25, 2010, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

nerfing any skill limits the pool of useful skills that may be used in various builds.

No, it doesn't.

In extreme example, mathematical theoretical one, if all skills were nerfed to value 1, from values 2-10, then we would have the greatest pool of useful skills because every skill would be useful enough, in proper circumstances, and people could choose do they want to be effective as beastmaster, BHA ranger, barragers, etc. Each of these would give equally effective but different approach the gameplay.

If you have Zergs, Protos and Terrans, and Terrans are OP, then Terrans are useful. But if you nerf Terrans and balance 3 of these, then all 3 are useful and can compete in a different, but equal way.

Quote:

by buffing monsters or killing some op synergies, you'd scale those top dots from your pyramid to the middle, while not completely deleting them from the whole construction.

No, by buffing monsters the pyramid would stay exactly the same. You buff ele monster to do 5000 dmg instead of 200. Ok, what did you achieve? Those dots (skills) on the top of the pyramid will still be better against these monsters, while more skills will be trash, if anything.

Your monster will do 5000dmg in one hit, so what did you do, make everyone run Ritual Lords, EMo ER prots, and Prot spirit is a skill you can't leave the zone with. That's just wrong. You're basically forcing people to run gimmicks only, as we can see in some elite areas. Imagine doing every mission and quest and vanquish the way people do some elite areas.. who would play the game?

You do 50dmg, monster does 5000. That just doesn't make the game fun. Ask elementalists if they are having fun in PvE HM using their elemental damage skills. They don't.

vamp08 · Feb 25, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by II Lucky Charm II

Good enough update. By the way guys, Starcraft 2 beta has been released.

Most of us are American or European; we dont give a rat's ass about Starcraft, that stuff is for asians. *notices ethnicity on avatar*

OnTopic: GW Doomsday 2010 here we come!!!! Can't wait to actually use my sin as intended and not be pre-judged.

BrettM · Feb 25, 2010, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Then you remove those 2 dots and you get to 3 dots = more gameplay options = more fun.

= dying/failing mission more often = less fun

@Darcy: I think there has been a good bit of useful feedback in this thread, though you have to pick it out from the mesmer argument. (And even the mesmer argument has contained some enlightening discussion.)

I am rather put out, however, that there is still no preliminary information on the farmageddon changes, even though the update is now only hours away. What does this say about ANet's desire to involve the community and get meaningful input? What does it say about their belief that this community CAN give meaningful input? It appears that the belief is non-existant and the desire is half-hearted (at best).

Davros Uitar · Feb 25, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giga_Gaia

Of course they don't give a shit. They're just going to push the update to go live regardless of what feedback they get. Just look at the January update. People raised concerns over Crip Shot, SF/AR and Blinding Surge/EDA, but got nothing. A good indication of future updates to come, I suppose.

I am sorry - people will raise some form of concern on any and every update. Some will cheer and some will QQ that they didn't get what they wanted (or get what they wanted to keep). I fail to see any relevance to your argument that any update should be delayed because "people raise concerns". Action is way overdue, so put the update out, explain your reasoning and see what that does. Look evaluate modify.

Frankly I would love the place to get used to a lot more frequent shakeups. Keep the changes rolling on a regular basis and let people now that change and evolution are a part of the game. This "find overpowered meta and farm the life out of it" mentality sucks all the life out of the game. Make people think more and play better and work out something new rather than "press 1,2,3".

To Chicken To Die · Feb 25, 2010, 04:05 PM // 16:05

D-day

A-net statistics
Online sins before skill update 75%
Online sins a hour after update 2%
Sup Shadow arts 1gp
Character deletion ~500/hour

jazilla · Feb 25, 2010, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Will anything be better than the chat going on in Kamadan AD1 and GToB tonight? I'm a glass half full kind of guy, and I am kinda glad that I can now get rid of my OF armor, my 600 armor on 3 characters and my SF armor. I have already started putting Anguished builds together in conjunction with Earthbind and Goren will now be able to use that Mallet he came with and will actually have a place in my party.